Talk:Partying (2005-2009)
Job Roles This is a really nice article and while obviously the roles are disputable, the back and forth on roles doesn't help anyone. I think something to keep in mind is that this is a general, basic overview of classic party mechanics. It in no way limits how certain parties can be formed. Any job can deal damage - but that doesn't make them all damage dealers in the sense that terms is used here. Same with tanking and healing for that matter. While some jobs nicely fit into dual roles (i.e. NIN and WAR as tank and DD; RDM as healer and support), most fit into one primary role much better than in any secondary role in a normal, i.e. classic, party setup. To have PLD in tank, DD and healer really fails to help a starting player understand the PLDs generally accepted primary role. I am not proposing that this be locked or anything, but would ask that if someone makes changes/additions/subtractions to the roles they post here on the talk page why they believe that it was necessary. --Gahoo 17:55, 10 January 2007 (EST) Perhaps we should bold the entry under which a job's primary concern is? A good example is PLD. A PLD's primary role in a standard party is tank, so that aspect should certainly be highlighted. However, I think this article is a good place to show that jobs can fill roles that they aren't normally placed in, if the need arises. A PLD who has the proper equipment (just the same as he would need proper equipment to tank) will fill a DD role in a pinch. The same applies to main healing. PLD has access to numerous pieces of gear with +MP, and has natural healing skill; Subjob ignored, he can perform to the same extent as a RDM. With /WHM, he can perform just as well (max Cure available accepted). Many jobs can perform multiple roles, with one role being the preferred or primary role, and others being a good role to be prepared for. Warrior used to be considered a good tank if there wasn't a NIN or PLD around, but that thinking has just about disappeared. While a warrior's primary role is certainly DD, they should also be included under tanking. I feel that by bolding the job in it's primary role, it illustrates what a new player will be expected to be able to do, while the unbolded roles will serve as an outlet for expanded thinking. --Chrisjander 20:03, 10 January 2007 (EST) :: Slight nitpicking, but PLD doesn't natively have Regen, and receive higher tier Cure spells later than RDM. It also lose outs on MP recovery (Convert beats Auto-Refresh) and the better safety margin offered by Fast Cast, though PLD does win on Flash and Hospitaler Earring compared to RDM/WHM. It's not correct to say PLD can perform in the healer role the same as RDM; overall, RDM slightly edges out PLD in that role, IMO. --Itazura 20:02, 12 June 2007 (CDT) I think the point being, any job can be modded to be similar in aspects... Why not simply mark them down as expected roles and call it that. No putting PLD or NIN as DD because they can, but tank because they'll be asked to do that. The only exception I'm seeing would be possibly RDM, who really when looking at their across the board stats and specialty in enhancing/enfeebling, is a support, though will be asked to main heal. I am however getting tired of seeing NIN keep reappearing as a DD, same with PLD as DNC. NINs and PLDs are both invited as tanks, so they should both be listed as such. Dancers are only drafted as main healers when their gear supports it and there is no healer on, in my experience. And given that all jobs will play how they want solo, perhaps we can leave PLD and NIN as tanks only, WHM, SCH, and RDM(?) as the healers, the support the support, and the DD the DD... Just a thought. --((User:Alaik)) 08 June 2008 :: Unlike PLDs, though, well geared NINs can and do perform as DDs. As a PLD75 with Joyeuse/Justice Dual Wield'ed, Haubergeon, Brutal Earring, PCC. Swift Belt, etc. (not every slot optimized, but all DD purposed), I'm thrilled when I manage to do half as much damage over time as a DD in a merit party. Yet, as a RDM75, I've seen many NINs achieve damage parity with decently geared (though not spectacular) DDs without trouble, even handsomely beating out the lazy or poorly geared DDs. It's an injustice to say NIN isn't a DD, just as it's a stretch to say PLD is one, in my experience. --FFXI-Itazura 11:43, 9 October 2008 (UTC) ::Way to just ignore the entire page and the topic being discussed to go into PLD vs. NIN. NINs even the best geared ones I've seen, only have matched average DD, if they were poor NINs, they didn't match one if they went AFK during the fight. Looking at your setup though, it's really recommended to mainhand a high damage sword so your WS are tiny and offhand either Joyeuse/Justice Sword, to help TP gain, not dual-wield both. Point being, a NIN and are on at 75 and the pt needs DD, the NIN's not going to be taken unless they are a very well known awesome NIN. If a NIN or PLD is seeking 12-70 along with a DNC, and the pt needs a tank, they're not going to invite the DNC and invite the NIN if they're DD don't mind giving the NIN time to build hate, or if they're DD are impatient, the PLD. Saying it one more time, *any* job can be built to play almost any role, barring a few exceptions. PLD/WHM can play main heal, but they rarely do/get asked to. NIN/WAR can play DD, but people use them as blink tanks. I've seen a BLM/WHM play main heal absolutely brilliantly in a pt post 70, but they are magic-DD. Point being, if this is a guide about what's going to be asked of you while partying, you don't need to list down every possible function of each job; They can get that on their job page or the forums. This guide is about partying, and unless dire-circumstances need: PLD/NIN are tanks, DNC is support, BLM a magic-DD, etc, etc. This listing jobs like DNC for everything because they can slide into every role easier than most is just silly and any new player who looks on this site, wanting to be a DNC main, is going to be misinformed and expect to be asked to play every job role as needed. (Yeah, had a RL friend I was getting to join ponder picking a new job until I told him DNCs are only invited to support, and he doesn't need to carry 4-5 entirely different sets of gear around.) The guide is to inform people about partying in basic exp situations, this means list the jobs as a basic exp would, instead of giving people the wrong idea when they check the page. Alaik 21:13, 22 October 2008 (UTC)Alaik I still have a serious problem with SMN being listed under healer... they don't have enough native blood pacts to perform this duty. If we're going to allow SMN on the list because when they sub WHM their MP becomes a cure battery, we might as well list BLM for the same reason. -- 21:56, 19 June 2007 (CDT) You should actually level SMN before you make this kind of challenge. -- 22:17, 19 June 2007 (CDT) I have, it sucks to have to level it without people thinking you're a healer because you have MP. I don't think this site should promote this unless it lists BLM for the same reason. -- 22:19, 19 June 2007 (CDT) It's reality, and realisticly BLM is not asked to be a healer, SMN is. In absense of a WHM, a SMN works just as well. Which is why it's listed there. You're not alone in the fact that SMN would rather use their BP in the way in which they're intended. This is why I stopped at 37, and am reluctant to proceed further. Saying BLM should be listed for the same reason is like saying any melee job that subs NIN can main tank just because they have shadows. -- 22:27, 19 June 2007 (CDT) I disagree. The reason SMN makes a decent healer is because it has lots of MP, and they sub WHM. A BLM who subs WHM has the exact same potential, and the exact same drawbacks as a SMN healer. I actually had to main heal as a BLM in my most recent leveling of it, and it works much the same (its better than no healer, but its mediocre at best). -- 22:43, 19 June 2007 (CDT) :SMN is a far better healer than a BLM, which it why it deserves to be listed and not BLM. You are wrong about bloodpacts. There is Whispering Wind, Spring Water(which also cures status ailments), and Healing Ruby(which can be more MP efficient than Cure III depending on gear). SMN's beneficial bloodpacts can also be of assistance towards their curing duty. -- 23:24, 19 June 2007 (CDT) You just made baby jesus cry... Main Healing as BLM... Solo man Solo rather than Main Heal... Either way... I have seen an efficient SMN main heal because of Carby and Garuda/Titans BPs rather than the simple fact that he had MP to cure... Curing came second to him - he was a main heal because he could keep the party buffed as well as healed- its esp more effective since the update with the splitting of the blood pacts where the SMN can heal as well as participate in Skillchains. I am going to have to yet again go with a good, efficient, and highly skilled SMN can in fact main heal better than a BLM x10 therefor can be put in there for that reasoning (and their own job supports for it) while BLM should not be. --Nynaeve 23:19, 19 June 2007 (CDT) : BLM doesn't make a terrible healer, just that it is much better suited to magic DD, whereas SMN cannot do as much direct damage with its MP for most levels and have a few healer tricks BLM can't match. : That said, BLM x2 can easily replace a WHM by duo main curing, and MB nuke x2 for terrific damage at the same time; it's very nice when done well in an SC+MB party. Solo main healing, though, BLM is somewhat iffy on the safety front due to the lack of Cure IV, the same as SMN, but without the build-in Auto-Refresh for longevity plus a handful of useful healing BP's. SMN has the upper hand as healer, but BLM shouldn't be dismissed altogether, especially when there are two BLM's in a party. --Itazura 06:39, 20 June 2007 (CDT) ::Personally, whenever I have played BLM and the majority of BLMs I know refuse to even consider main healing even with two in the party. Its just not their job - they are relying solely on their subjob which in fact does not make them an option for main healing. ::The point is, at least SMN has the abilities to do it in their own job while BLM does not - low MND, Drain is the only spell of their own that can heal and that mind you is a self-heal... I do not see anywhere in a BLMs job description/abilities/spells a place where they should be thought/made to heal. WHM, yes. RDM, yes. PLD even, yes. BLU, again yes. SMN, to a lesser extent, yes. BLM - NO. To be considered a main healer, it should somehow stem from your main job not just your subjob. If your ability to do so comes solely from your sub, than you should not be main healing in any circumstances - its the biggest waste of time... Having two party slots taken up by healing BLMs rather than DDing ones... That is the biggest waste of a slot I have ever seen... BLMs can solo, they shouldn't resort to healing or be told they have to - backup once and a while because the WHM is incompetent, sure, but never Main Heal... Simply isn't in their job description. --Nynaeve 17:28, 20 June 2007 (CDT) ::: Maybe you misunderstood what I wrote? BLM x2 main healing is not curing only; it's sharing the cure load so they'd still have enough MP to MB as well as some free nuking. And, getting consistent chain#4's in mid Lv.20's make me rather like that "waste of a slot" with BLMx2. SC + MBx2 can be pretty nice, I assure you, even if you'd have to toss out a few cures to play that. --Itazura 16:35, 21 June 2007 (CDT) I just thought I would throw in my two cents. I'm a BLM and I do solo when it's necessary, but if TP-Burn parties are desperate, I have been asked numerous times to come main heal. We may not have the mind or healing magic skill, but with the black cloak and light staff, you do perfectly fine. I agree that it's not recommended by any means, but if it's all there is, EXP is EXP. And Sleepga II is always welcomed for multiple links. ^^ Minivoldemort 16:05, 30 June 2008 (UTC) Why don't we just list classes as "Primary" and "Secondary" roles? PLD and NIN as primary tanks, WAR and DNC as secondary. They can do it if they must, but they don't match PLD and NIN, and aren't considered main tanks by the community. Ditto with DDs, a SAM is a primary damage dealer, but in a pinch you can have your RDM step up and do some offense; but that's usually not their main role and they won't compare well to a strong damage class. DNC as Support I find that most of my time as a DNC from 20-37 was spent as a support role, combining both Steps to debuff the mobs and Waltzes to back-up heal. I don't think that DNC can do the Main Healer role, but it does well as back-up. Also, I would take it out of DD, due to lack of damaging job abilities. --Ctownwoody 01:30, 2 April 2008 (UTC) : Depending on the amount of curing needed and the skill of the player, a Dancer can indeed play main healer. I've had one party with two well equipped (and crazy) SAM/WAR's (and sundry) at the Greater Colibri camp ably kept alive mostly by one Dancer, with some help from the RDM (me) with a few Cure III's and a lot Regen's. Then again, that DNC player is a "career WHM", so probably never thought of DNC as anything other than a healer job. lol. --FFXI-Itazura 11:50, 9 October 2008 (UTC) silly picky change Can you make my change back to Backup Healer from Back-up Healer? ;) thanks --Leuqarte 01:05, 15 June 2008 (UTC) Bad party leader The line "Invites everyone without knowing where to camp and then asks: "Where does everyone want to go?"" really puts me off, some people have camps that they like to go to over others. Crawler's Nest vs. Quicksand Caves, Garlaige vs. Sea Serpent, are just a few examples. Asking that question doesn't reflect a bad leader unless it's followed by the statement: "I have no idea." Just change the line to "A leader who doesn't know the appropriate camps, in regards to level and job setup." Grm88 00:21, 30 June 2008 (UTC) : There's also cultural consideration; Japanese parties in general like to operate by consensus, so for one person--even the party leader--to unilaterally dictate where to go without asking others' opinions, it may be seen as antisocial. Also, at the risk of sounding sexist, it's said that women like consensus building style of decision making, so the "Where does everyone want to go?" style may actually quite agreeable, if not outright preferable. Many male players wouldn't mind leader checking with members first before deciding on camps, I would think. Anyway, YMMV. --FFXI-Itazura 11:06, 9 October 2008 (UTC) consider "unless someone has a better idea I think we should head to...", that's not offensive at all.--Deadmeataru (talk) 12:57, July 23, 2014 (UTC) Revision I kinda think this needs to be rewritten a bit partying has changed a lot since 2007. BLU can tank You have BLU listed under DD and healer but not as a tank. BLU has a wide selection of hate and damage mitigation tools, including some unique ones that no other job can replicate. Whoever put this sentence: "Taking the hate away from the tank proves nothing....any player can take the hate from the tank at any time if they want to." in this guide has partied with too many PLDs! (No offense to you PLDs here... I'll share if you will :) I have personally tanked EXP parties at every level range, all kinds of missions and even endgame events like Sky, Dynamis and Ultima/Omega as a BLU. My last endgame linkshell loved my BLU--I was the main tank whenever I showed up and never even got to use my 75 PLD. If you want more information, I'm writing a guide at Janeth's Guide to BLU Tanking. --Janeth 03:46, January 15, 2010 (UTC)